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Author Topic: Owners  (Read 1259 times)
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Vivian
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« on: June 22, 2005, 09:02:54 PM »

For a while now, it has been bothering me that one owner can have so many cars.  I know each team has different players, so to speak, but I do not like a monopoly in anything.  As a fan, I have always been a fan of the driver first, the car second with the owner third.  Now I find that I really dislike it when I know that only one owner's cars will be winning on a consistant basis no matter who the driver is.  Sunday, one owner had 4 of the top five finishers in the race.  To me, that is like having his own series with different teams and it just takes the thrill of it away for me.  If week after week, we know one owner will control the top five, why watch?  JMHO...  I can play 5 hands of solitare agaist myself and guarantee I will win at least the majority of them.  That is just as exciting in a way.  I can't lose, in other words.  Something is wrong here, people.

Am I the only one who is feeling this way these days?  Opinions, please.
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old hot rodder
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2005, 11:02:23 PM »

Vivian, even tho I am a Roush fan, I am a bit embarrased about all their success this year. Particularly since Matt and Kurt are not doing as well as they have proven to be capable.
 Keep the faith, Vivian. One or both of two things will happen:
   Nascar will change the rules,
   or
   The pendulum of good fortune will swing the other way one day soon.
 In the meantime, we Roushies are gonna enjoy it while it lasts. I really think that the Roush crews work as hard as any, so they have earned it.



6more to go!!! Cheesy  :-D
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Smallblock bored
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2005, 12:32:45 AM »

Multy car teams may seem to have the overall advantage but think back a few years before you jump on the too many car theory. It was not long ago that Jack R. had 6 cars and ran one just about out of his pocket to help old Jeff Burton out. It may seem to the naked eye that the bigger multi wheeled efforts have all the goods but look at it like this for a second. You can place all the blame on NASCAR and its backwards thinking. First they start by taking away spring rubbers, then they say you can only run this shock, then it was just this spring, then it was only this gear. They took all the racing out of racing and now the product sucks. When a team goes to test it has the one shock, one spring, no rubbers on this wheel only this gear. It does not take a rocket scientist (okay I’ll admit I’m a rocket scientist but I stopped doing it on a money making level), but it is simple to see a 5 car team or a 4 car team just runs this combo and that combo on certain cars and wham, you all this “DATA”. It Is at NASCARs’ feet that the blame must be laid. If I have six guys practicing on a lane condition for a bowling tourney and you have three I’ll learn more about the lane conditions quicker than you. If you don’t bowl lets say……6 fisherman on a pond, 6 guys surveying a mountain, 6 guys looking for a gas leak, 6 guys looking for the answer to why a multi car team has such week in and week out advantages. There was a driver who sorta laughed and said something along the lines that went “ NASCAR went and gave us all the tools we need to figure these tracks out, each other”
 Now who was that, I can’t think, if only I had 5 other men/women to help me out.
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Tech6Rick
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2005, 12:47:28 AM »

Quote from: "Smallblock bored"
“ NASCAR went and gave us all the tools we need to figure these tracks out, each other”


I think that's an important point.  Personally I think the degree of communication within a team matters more than the number of cars it fields.  Hendrick is a classic example.  When they started sharing information between the 24/48 and the 5/25, the results were dramatic.  Some writers are claiming that testing is the difference, but I don't buy that.  I think the teams at the top of the standings are saving their tests for the Chase.

I feel it's instructive to look at the well-funded multi-car teams that aren't keeping pace with Roush and Hendrick.  A couple just plain don't share between teams (Penske, DEI).  Others have such different drivers and/or crew chiefs that the inter-team communication isn't as valuable (Gibbs, RCR, Ganassi, Evernham).  It seems that Roush and Hendrick have put together the most compatible organizations, top to bottom.  I don't think any rule changes will put that genie back in the bottle.  What will happen is that the other teams will step up, just as has always happened.

Do I wish a lightly funded single car team could succeed?  Of course.  But I don't see a return to those days.

JMHO, of course.

Deb
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TexasDeb
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2005, 12:49:04 AM »

OOOOPPPSSSS!  That was me, not Rick.  We need to figure out a better way to know which of us is logged in.

Deb
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Vivian
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2005, 01:14:24 AM »

Deb, you cracked me up on your last post on this thread!  Thanks, I needed that laugh.   :lol:

It isn't any specific owner that irritates me, it is the monopoly by one person - no matter who it is.  They say they are allowed to own 3 cars.  Of course, they do put the other cars in someone else's name, but it is still one owner to me.  I know the communication is the most important thing and the sharing of information is what makes them all more or less equal in performing, but it still just gets to me.  I liken it to competing against ones self.  Does that make sense?  I like trying to figure the strategy of things, but I sure hate playing checkers against myself as it just doesn't seem to really put any competition into the game.  Maybe if I had 12 children and 6 checkers games, then I could maybe feel differently since I would be pulling for all of them.   :?

Please keep the feelings and obversations coming so maybe I can come to terms with it better.  Thanks to all of you.
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TexasDeb
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2005, 01:53:44 AM »

This should be me this time  Cool

First, I don't think there has ever been any restriction on the number of cars one owner can field.  It's only some of the point funds that you can only claim for a certain number of cars.

It wasn't that long ago that the pundits all said you can't field a second (or third, or fourth, or fifth) team without hurting your #1 Stud.  (They also said a Cup driver shouldn't run Busch because that diluted his Cup effort, but that's another topic.)  The early model for a multi-car team was a primary car and an R&D team.  To be honest, that's the structure I object to (Mayfield in the 12, or the history of the 5/25, for examples).  Now the most successful structure is a team of fully competitive cars that communicate Monday through Saturday but are independent on Sunday.

Since I tend to look at the drivers rather than the owners, the current situation doesn't bother me as much.  If it was Gordon and Martin winning all the races with their supporting cast blocking the rest of the field, I'd be up in arms even though I'm a Martin fan.  I watch like I have 43 kids playing checkers, to borrow from your analogy.  For now, 8 are doing well.  It's a different perspective.

Deb
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sally
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2005, 03:01:39 AM »

I think good communication has a lot to do with the success of Hendrick and Rousch.  I also think that having enough teams with enough tests to hit every track on the circuit at least once with at least one team also makes a big difference.  If you can get data on every track, then disseminate the info to every team, and field almost 10 % of the field out of your one shop, it definitely gives you a leg up on the competition

I still think there is a 'limit' on how many teams one owner can have...otherwise why have Georgia Roush listed as an owner, or Jeff Gordon for one of the Hendrick teams...as 'Poppa Joe' owned the #25.  That may conform to the letterof the rule, but not the spirit.  It doesn't seem to be an atmoshpere that will encourage any new teams to try to get in on the action, does it?  I would be interested to see how things would go if each shop was assigned a certain number of test dates, no matter how many cars come from that shop.  If Roush and Hendrick were limited to 7 dates, no matter how many teams they have, would they be doind as well?  Interesting.

Sally
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2005, 12:45:02 PM »

Quote from: "Deb"
I feel it's instructive to look at the well-funded multi-car teams that aren't keeping pace with Roush and Hendrick.  A couple just plain don't share between teams (Penske, DEI).  Others have such different drivers and/or crew chiefs that the inter-team communication isn't as valuable (Gibbs, RCR, Ganassi, Evernham).  It seems that Roush and Hendrick have put together the most compatible organizations, top to bottom.  I don't think any rule changes will put that genie back in the bottle.  What will happen is that the other teams will step up, just as has always happened.


I think you made some excellent points, Deb!  Roush and Hendrick just seem to have a talent for putting great driver/crew chief combinations together:  Gordon/Evernham and Labonte/Dehart years ago, Johnson/Knauss now, Burton/Stoddard, Martin/Hmiel, Busch/Fennig, Biffle/Richert, Edwards (can't think of his crew chief's name).
They key there is the chemistry/communication whatever you want to call it makign the most of excellent equipment.

As you point out DEI, Gibbs, Childress and Ganassi just aren't getting the most out of their resources right now.  

As to people acting like those teams aren't also multi-car conglomerates, I think you have to remember RCR does have 3 full-time teams and DEI has fielded 3-4 cars in many races (most notably restrictorplate tracks).  It's just that folks tend to forget Kenny Wallace in the Aarons 99 is really backed by DEI even if the owner's name is Michael Waltrip on the entry blank (so it's no different than Roush's mom or Hendrick's late dad).  Then you have Kerry Earnhardt driving alternately for RCR or DEI.  Evernham has two full-time teams and then put Beeeylll in a car in several races this year, plus some other drivers at times I believe.

Like Deb, I don't want the "monopolies" dominating the sport, but I ran out of energy ranting about the "Roush Armada" about 7-8 years ago.  It's just that all the Hendrick and Roush cars didn't consistently have such strong driver/crew combinations back then, so they were not all a threat to win every week like we are seeing today.  It was bound the happen with all the money, engineering, and talent that's come into the sport during the last 10 years.  

Plus I've mellowed about Roush some over the years, so I don't really think about Edwards or Biffle as being part of the Armada these days.  

We have seen the strong driver/crew chief combination of Newman/Borland pay off for Penske in past years.  I sincerely think the shock rule hurt that team more than any other others out there.  Plus the new nose of the so-called "Charger" is not what Dodge expected it to be (I think I read that they designed it under the old rules and weren't expecting the spoiler/shock changes).  If this hadn't happened, we'd have seen the Evernham and Penske Dodges competing more every week.  If those two teams weren't getting all the top technolgoy from Dodge, I think we would see a lot more out of the Ganassi cars as well.  As to the Fords of Robert Yates, I'm not quite sure what has happened to them.  It seems like they gave the most in the engine department in their alliance with Roush and have gotten the least out of it.  But then, I think it does come back to driver/crew chief chemistry and DJ has never been the same since Todd Parrott left him.  Sadler runs well with Parrott, but doesn't seem to have hit that unbeatable combination Parrott had with Jarrett.

Even MB2 has two cars now and are really shadow teams for Hendrick.

So in the end, I guess I see the entire sport being dominated by multi-car teams.  Some just have more cars than others.  It has been that way for many years now.  I accepted it long time ago that the Ken Schraders of the world don't stand a chance as single-car teams.  

Cheryl
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2005, 02:22:41 PM »

Hey this is a great discussion, gang.
 Cheryl, Carl's crew chief is Bob Osborne. He was a rookie CC last year when he started with the 99.
  I think Deb is correct about the "communication" element. The Roush folks are all over themselves these days congratulating each other and thanking each other for assistance, etc. Greg has been very gracious about that point, almost crediting Matt and Robbie with one of his wins, as a for instance.
  Hendrick is clearly a leader in this area. No doubt that Jeff has been a big help for Jimmie, and frankly, I like seeing their younger guys doing well too. I wish Joe Nemecek had done better there.
  And your point about driver/crew chief combinations is very much on target. I wish Jeff Burton would get back with Frankie Stoddard!! I creit Jimmy Fennig for the Kurt success the last couple of years.
  'Nuff for now. See ya,   D ick Cheesy
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William James
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2005, 04:39:15 PM »

I enjoy all of the perspectives I have read so far.  I also agree that the number of teams is not as important as who is on them (driver/crew chief/pit crew members).

Let's also not forget that NASCAR is experiencing a "brain drain" at the moment.  In other words, there are more top-notch teams than there are drivers available.  It doesn't matter if an owner has three teams, four teams, or more.  If the driver isn't good enough, all the information sharing in the world won't be enough.  Just ask J.D. Gibbs.

Next year will be interesting.  Who will gain and who will lose from the driver/crew changes?  And with the average age of the drivers continuing to drop, with less experience in the sport that their predecessors, what will happen to the quality of racing?
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2005, 04:58:28 PM »

Quote from: "Desmond"
Let's also not forget that NASCAR is experiencing a "brain drain" at the moment.  In other words, there are more top-notch teams than there are drivers available.


I'm not sure where you got that idea, Desmond, but I totally disagree!  There are tons of top-notch stock car drivers available.  They just are NOT young enough for the sponsors.  See Sterling Marlin as an example.  

Cheryl
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old hot rodder
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2005, 07:07:57 PM »

I dunno, Cheryl. I think there are many good, competent drivers, as you say, but not many truly exceptional ones.
  I like Sturlin' (in spite of the bug eyed dummy remark :-D ), but I don't think he was ever in the top tier of drivers, like Rusty, Ironhead or Mark Martin.
  In some ways, I think it is easier to find really good drivers, than it is to find really good crew chiefs. Think B Lab and Jarrett and their more recent performances.




2 more to go!!! :-D
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William James
Vivian
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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2005, 08:23:39 PM »

Come on, Dick!  Get those other 2 on a thread!  :smt026   Blue helmets are so very neat!!!

Okay, some really good points are being made and I am really beginning to feel maybe my objection to monopoly is not really important.  I liked the point someone made about evening up the number of test dates allowed no matter how many teams you have.  That would help my feelings I think.

Where is everyone else who hasn't posted recently and what are your views on this?
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old hot rodder
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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2005, 08:49:59 PM »

"where is everyone who has not posted lately......"
 I guess that leaves me out. :-D  :-D
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William James
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