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General Discussions => Race Talk => Topic started by: Vivian on September 12, 2004, 06:35:03 PM



Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Vivian on September 12, 2004, 06:35:03 PM
After the race last night, I had some very mixed feelings.  Watching the interviews with Bobby Labonte, Kevin Harvick, Kasey Kahne, Dale Jarrett & Jamie McMurray almost made me cry.  It was just the finality of it.  I will try to explain.  My heart was breaking because there is absolutely no way they can advance beyond 11th no matter how many races they now win or how many of the top 10 have dnf's or something else happen that would have in the past made them lose a top 10 position.  

I am not a sponsor but if I were:

1. I would seriously be looking at where my $$$ are now going to be heading and how much tv exposure I will get for them.  

2.Yes, I may win several races but they won't let my car and driver be on stage in New York. I didn't even make 11th because that other driver one position ahead of me in points won one more race than my car & driver.  He will get 11th.

3. Hey, that 8th position person got hurt and can't race the last 4 races.  Gosh, under the old points, I would have made it.  Oops, another driver had a couple of dnf's but he gets to keep 10th even though under the old points he would have dropped back to 12th.

4.Ahh..let's re-negotiate this sponsorship.  Maybe for 26 races and after that we will talk again.  Depends on where we are in points.  I may put out more $$$ or I may not.  This 36 race season may not be cost effective any more.  Think I will look elsewhere to advertise.

Just some things to ponder.  Things like that actually happening are just a supposition in my mind.  Maybe I am being too negative.  Or maybe I am suffering from disillusionment.  Whatever it is has left me feeling sad  :(


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Desmond on September 13, 2004, 05:14:40 PM
Indeed, Vivian, Internet columnist Patty Kay calls the new points system "The Chase for No Sponsorship." :P

You can find her columns at insiderracingnews.com (http://insiderracingnews.com).


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Smallblock bored on September 13, 2004, 06:46:02 PM
Many folks at POCONO  were pissed up a bit about the fact NEXTELL  had nothing to offer them. I will miss the fre cigs (i don't smoke but friends liked it ) free cooler bags calenders scedules shirts ect. NEX to nothing had nothing to offer the fans but a glossy sales pitch. I think NEXTELL sucks a sponsor. "I THINK I REMEMBER HEARING SOMETHIN' ABOUT THE FACT THAT NEXTELL HAD A HAND IN THE CHANGING OF THE SYSTEM"
  I think with all the talk of this stupid false economy we live in and the loss of sponsorship from the year past it is only the beginning of a lond downward spiral into of the past where a certain "group" is the contenders and this big ten will be getting old real fast. Remember you heard it heree when I say after next season and at the end of this one,talk will swirl around ditching it. NASCAR will say no.....then bend over with a simple minded spin on things and go back to the old ways.........
 It is still the top "25" that get on stage yes?
 No Vivian ...i'm sorry but I did write with my mouth full so to speak as I failed to read any posts as I hurried up in and out ...Sorry I'm not the type of person that sits there and repeats what someone else says and gives no credit....Ever have to work with this type AAAAHG!!!


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: ronbarnes77 on September 13, 2004, 07:04:04 PM
i think it's going to a disaster for several big time teams who will lose sponsorships.


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Vivian on September 13, 2004, 08:55:57 PM
How do you people think Childress and Ganassi will handle not having anyone in the top 10 and maybe not even 11th????


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: ronbarnes77 on September 13, 2004, 09:06:20 PM
ganissi 's  already said  he's not happy about mcmurray finishing outside the chase.


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: old hot rodder on September 13, 2004, 09:15:48 PM
As they say in France "C'est la Vie!" (you can prob. tell I'm not an RCR or Ganassi fan).


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: John on September 14, 2004, 01:56:47 AM
There's a lot of "what if's" here.  Especially since the first race of the chase hasn't even started yet.  Personally, I would like to have this discussion at the end of the season, then you don't have to deal with the "what if's".  But since it has started, here are some other things to think of:

- Despite the fact that there could have been 15 drivers in the chase (and believe me, nobody wanted Jarrett and McMurray to get in more than me), the up side to all the attention the last month or so on who was in or out of the chase was that the drivers who had a chance got more exposure because of the chase than they would have last year if they were in the same situation.  Maybe those sponsors would be saying, "Damn, we were this close.  Maybe next year will be our year?!"  You never know.

-  As far as sponsors go, here is a list:  Citgo, Net Zero, Tide, Kodak, Cingular, Cheerios, Kellogg's, Coors Light, Target, Georgia-Pacific, Valvoline, Motorcraft, Napa, CAT; to name a few.  Even though Citgo is no longer with us, all of these sponsors have poured millions into their respective teams over several years.  To think that all of these sponsors thought they had a legitimate shot at the championship is a little hard to believe.  They evaluate the performance of a team over several years.  If they do not perform (as the case with citgo) then they choose not to come back.  Remember the old saying, "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday," not, "Win in November, Sell during the next year."  If that were the case, there would only be 1 sponsored team, that being the defending champion.  Any good exposure is still good exposure, whether it be wins, Top 5's or Top 10's.

- Last year, Kenseth had such a lead on the rest of the field in the championship that most teams were considered not to have a "realistic" chance.  They may have had a "mathematical" chance, but that is just saying you have these many points to lose in so many races before you are officially eliminated.  Therefore, most of the attention was given to Kenseth and everyone else was forgotten.

All I'm saying here folks is don't throw the baby out with the bath water.  This year, the championship is different and it is too soon to tell how it's going to affect things.  I have already spoken to some folks who are getting ready to go to New Hampshire.  They have said that if it weren't for the cutoff for the chase on Saturday night, the race would not have been worth watching.  I know that differs from the opinions here, but there are other opinions out there from those who believe that we still have not come to the end of the world.  Let's take it one day at a time and see how things go; if you want to.  If you don't want to, carry on.  :D


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: sally on September 14, 2004, 12:02:19 PM
John, you're absolutely right that the majority of teams over the years had no realistic chance of winning the championship.  But, they used to be able to count on enough TV exposure to make their sponsorship wothwhile.  Judging by the coverage on Staurday night, the now irrelevant 75% of the field has almost no hope of TV time.  How did you like the post race interviews with Mike Bliss (4th), Carl Edwards (6th), and Mike Wallace(9th)?  These long shots had the best races they've ever had, but were trampled by the herd of reporters anxious to shove a mike in DJ's face.  (Did anyone else catch the opening of SpeedNews on Sun. night and hear DJ's bleeped reaction to the jamup of reporters?  And the expression on Sean Pragano's face?  Priceless).  For the past 6 weeks all we heard about was the 7 teams "on the bubble".  Now it will be the 10 in the crapshoot only.  It gives TV the excuse to ignore 75% of the field instead of the 50% they typically overlook.  I'd be willing to bet that what we get for 10 races is more of that "if the race ended now" scenario for the top 10 only.  NBC and TNT have already shown us how much attention they will pay to anyone who finishes in the top 10 that isn't in the Top 10.

Sorry...I did run on there, didn't I?  And that's before I had my coffee!  Probably a good thing!  I think there are too many flaws in this system.  Giving the race winners 50 more points would have been a dandy way to deal with the "1 win champ", without eliminating all  hope for so many other teams.
Sally
 :roll:


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Cheryl on September 14, 2004, 01:04:50 PM
Quote from: "sally"
(Did anyone else catch the opening of SpeedNews on Sun. night and hear DJ's bleeped reaction to the jamup of reporters?  And the expression on Sean Pragano's face?  Priceless).


Oh!  I wondered if I was the only one who heard that!  It happened so fast in their "teaser" clips at the beginning of the show, I wasn't sure who said it.  Then they never replayed that bit during the show.  Lou missed it and I never rewound the Tivo to hear it again (assuming it would be replayed during the show).  Glad I wasn't imagining it.   :)

I agree with you, Sally, I'm betting the race winners in the next 10 weeks (assuming they are not the annointed few) will get very little coverage.  

Cheryl


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Vivian on September 14, 2004, 04:21:22 PM
Jphn said:

Quote
There's a lot of "what if's" here. Especially since the first race of the chase hasn't even started yet. Personally, I would like to have this discussion at the end of the season, then you don't have to deal with the "what if's". But since it has started, here are some other things to think of:



John, no reason we can't have another discussion the end of the year to either praise or not this points issue.  That is what we are all about.  8)

Like Sally said,

Quote
How did you like the post race interviews with Mike Bliss (4th), Carl Edwards (6th), and Mike Wallace(9th)? These long shots had the best races they've ever had, but were trampled by the herd of reporters anxious to shove a mike in DJ's face


This was bad press, imo, and it may happen again in the last 10 races since we know only the 10 running for champ will get most if not all the attention.  BTW, I did watch Wind Tunnel last night and DW complained about TNT not mentioning Bliss, Hamilton Jr and M. Wallace who had great runs on Saturday.  My first thought was, well, FOX doesn't talk about a lot of them either.  So it probably won't make much difference if you are not in the chase or at least trying for 11th.


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: old hot rodder on September 14, 2004, 05:33:54 PM
I think John made some good points. I do agree, however, that NBC overdid the "chase" stuff these last few weeks, esp. Saturday at Richmind.
 My main concern was that Mark Martin got in, so that is what I was paying attention to, not the other stuff. I do feel bad for B Lab and Jamie, but they both have next year to shoot for.
It will be fun to go back and look at it after Homestead.
See ya
Cheryl, do I get another little Blue Helmet yet?? :lol:


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Cheryl on September 14, 2004, 05:39:17 PM
Quote from: "old hot rodder"
I think John made some good points. I do agree, however, that NBC overdid the "chase" stuff these last few weeks, esp. Saturday at Richmind.
 My main concern was that Mark Martin got in, so that is what I was paying attention to, not the other stuff. I do feel bad for B Lab and Jamie, but they both have next year to shoot for.
It will be fun to go back and look at it after Homestead.
See ya
Cheryl, do I get another little Blue Helmet yet?? :lol:


It's getting the point, I can't remember all the thresholds for helmets!  But I think if you top 100 posts, you get to be "Wily Veteran."  So keep posting, Dick!   :lol:

Cheryl


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: John on September 14, 2004, 08:05:16 PM
I'm not sure how to do mutiple quotes so I'll have to reply in a few different messages.

Quote from: "sally"
How did you like the post race interviews with Mike Bliss (4th), Carl Edwards (6th), and Mike Wallace(9th)?  These long shots had the best races they've ever had, but were trampled by the herd of reporters anxious to shove a mike in DJ's face.  


While I agree that these guys should not have been overlooked, I believe it wasn't the chase's fault that they were, it was TNT's.  Somebody in the control room made a decision to whether they realized it or not, to ignore them.  However, last night on Wind Tunnel, Bill Weber said that they were looked after in their beloved Through The Field.

But where those guys finished has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

I would disagree on the percentage of ignored drivers is higher this year than last year.  What I said above is that the drivers down to 15th got MORE exposure this year than they would have last year, because last year Kenseth had such a lead that they only focused on him and whoever was in 2nd and 3rd.  So if you say 75% of the field got ignored this year, than 95% of the field got ignored last year.  And I'll be darned if Dave Despane didn't say the exact same thing to DW last night.  

As far as the rest of the field goes, if they want exposure, they better get to the front and stay there.

Oh, yeah, I didn't see the post race interviews because, the race was on TNT and we don't get TNT in Canada.  So on TSN, the first break after the end of the race, they ended the broadcast.  No interviews except Jeremy, Jamie, Bobby and Dale.  Thats it!  This week's race will be shown at 7PM for 2 1/2 hours!!  I get to see if live if it dosen't rain.


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: John on September 14, 2004, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: "Vivian"



John, no reason we can't have another discussion the end of the year to either praise or not this points issue.  That is what we are all about.  8)



Sounds great, Vivian.  I wish there were a thumbs up icon here.


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: derbyit857 on September 15, 2004, 03:17:43 PM
John said:

Oh, yeah, I didn't see the post race interviews because, the race was on TNT and we don't get TNT in Canada. So on TSN, the first break after the end of the race, they ended the broadcast. No interviews except Jeremy, Jamie, Bobby and Dale. Thats it! This week's race will be shown at 7PM for 2 1/2 hours!! I get to see if live if it dosen't rain


I hear you loud and clear John.. Same problem here.. TNT and FX is a joke!  So sick of having to watch TSN's and Sportsnet's coverage of the broadcasts..  All butchered up with none of the promos appearing on the screen..  Not even the Coke family of drivers graphics get shown unless it's on NBC or FOX..  To me what's annoying is you "hear" all the sounds like the graphics are appearing but they switch to a "from the sky" view or something of the speedway..  Ugh..  What can we do though??  Can't get FX or TNT here.. But we do get TBS!  YAY!   :x


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: John on September 16, 2004, 01:52:01 AM
Another Canadian!  How are ya!

This Sunday's race from NH is being tape delayed until 6 or 7PM for 2.5 hours on TSN.  I'm not too broken hearted about it because we'll be there in NH to watch the race.  But I wanted to come home and watch the race to see how different it seems on TV compared to actually being there.

I wish Sportsnet had more races because I found they do a better job with the races than TSN.  I only wish when this new TV package came along that Turner had stuck with TBS rather than TNT, then we would be all set.

Don't you love the Cingular trivia question.  Allen reads the question but not the answers, so we have no idea what they are talking about because it doesn't show up on the screen!  Then, when they are done, the ticker comes back on at the top of the screen.  Is TSN afraid that Cingular is going to come to Canada and compete with Bell!

Did you read that article from the Chatham Daily News?  It is well worth the read.

Thanks for posting, finally somebody who knows my pain! :lol:


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: derbyit857 on September 16, 2004, 04:09:02 PM
Hey John!  I am fine!  You?

I wasted lots of time and effort emailing TSN about the poor coverage and the "BANG"-gone approach they take at the end of the races but they never even responded.  I was very polite!  Half their races this year they covered, they cut off without us even seeing the final finishing order!  Just to put on Sportscentre..  WOW, can't miss that recap show that plays on reply all morning long!  LOL  You can almost hear it each time the race is ending each TSN covered race.  Allen says "We will be back with the finishing order and the victory lane celebrations after this".  You know what's coming next..  "BA BA BA, BA BA BA..    SPORTSCENTRE!"   GONE..  Thank goodness for the Internet!

I too think Sportsnet does a better job..  Although I still hear that music of theirs complete with the spinning logo in my head in my nightmares (the one that plays when they are trying to fill the gap before the coverage starts again after a commercial)...  :-)

You're going to the NH race eh?  Cool!  Only been to one race so far. Charlotte in 2001..  Have a great time!

I was hoping so bad that the races would be moved to TBS which we all get but no dice.. I even called Expressvu and BEGGED them to get TNT or FX..  They said it was up to the CRTC and we know we aren't going to get anywhere with those guys!

I hate the Cingular things too when we can't see the graphic.. Especially when Allen says "And there you have it!  35%".  HAVE WHAT?   I just think they aren't paying to advertise in Canada during that broadcast so they blank all the sponsors out.. The funny part is that even the sponsors in the top left of the screen get blocked. Used to be just the big NASCAR logo.  Now it's the Nextel Cup logo and the NASCAR lettering..

No, I missed the article in the Chatham news!  When was it?


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Vivian on September 16, 2004, 04:59:00 PM
John, have a great and safe trip this weekend.  Enjoy the race and be sure to tell us about your trip.

Been meaning to ask either or both of you - do you get Speed TV up there?  I am assuming you do.  Also, do you have regular cable or do you have something like Dish or Direct TV?


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Desmond on September 16, 2004, 05:02:17 PM
Craig,

I'm curious to know what will be on TSN instead of racing Sunday afternoon.  My guess is either the NFL or Ryder Cup golf.


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: John on September 16, 2004, 08:43:21 PM
Thanks Vivian.  I've been keeping track of the weather all week and I just told Tammy that there is 0% chance of showers on Sunday.  I had to tie bricks to her feet she was jumping around so much.

Personally, I have the Bell ExpressVu satellite system which has Speed TV (thank goodness).  There is also Star Choice satellite, but I've never watched it, so I can't say how good it is.  As far as cable goes here in the east it is mainly Rogers Cable and Rogers Digital Cable.  I think Speed is on the Digital, but I'm not sure.  What is in Ontario and west, derbyit857 can probably fill you in.

Desmond, the Ryder Cup will be on TSN.  Like that couldn't be hacked up into an hour show without missing anything.


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Cheryl on September 17, 2004, 12:26:47 AM
I know I'm breaking my "thread subject" rules, but I want to make sure John sees this before he leaves.  I posted under chit-chat as well.

John,

I hope I haven't waited too long to get these for you.  Hope you haven't left for NH yet.  Here are two frequencies that Lou and I used for TNT at Richmond:

450.175
450.537

One has the "producer" talk and on one it is cut out.  Hope these are useful to you this weekend.  Have a good time at the races!

Cheryl


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: John on September 17, 2004, 01:08:41 AM
Quote from: "Cheryl"
I know I'm breaking my "thread subject" rules, but I want to make sure John sees this before he leaves.  I posted under chit-chat as well.

Cheryl


I appreciate your help.  You are a woman of your word.  Thanks


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: John on September 17, 2004, 01:12:00 AM
Quote from: "derbyit857"
I hate the Cingular things too when we can't see the graphic.. Especially when Allen says "And there you have it!  35%".  HAVE WHAT?   I just think they aren't paying to advertise in Canada during that broadcast so they blank all the sponsors out.. The funny part is that even the sponsors in the top left of the screen get blocked. Used to be just the big NASCAR logo.  Now it's the Nextel Cup logo and the NASCAR lettering..


Yeah, I could live without it since it is just advertising, but to know it's there and not be able to see it kind of reminds me of when I was a child and the grown ups would want to talk about something and spell things out or speak in code.  You knew something was going on but you didn't know what exactly.


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: John on September 17, 2004, 01:14:46 AM
Quote from: "derbyit857"

No, I missed the article in the Chatham news!  When was it?


Here's the link, I hope it still works.

http://www.chathamdailynews.ca/webapp/sitepages/content.asp?contentid=78016&catname=Local+Sports

If it doesn't, I printed it out.  I could try to e-mail it to you next week.


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: derbyit857 on September 17, 2004, 07:49:27 PM
Here's the TSN Broadcast schedule for Sunday for you Desmond:

1:30 AM UEFA Champions League Highlights
2:00 AM SPORTSCENTRE
3:00 AM Motoring 2004
3:30 AM Motorcycle Experience  
4:00 AM Parts Canada Superbike Championship - Mosport Part II
4:30 AM PINS Bowling Men's 5 Pin
5:30 AM TSN Profile: Jim Nelford
6:00 AM SPORTSCENTRE
7:00 AM SPORTSCENTRE
8:00 AM SPORTSCENTRE
9:00 AM SPORTSCENTRE
10:00 AM ESPN Magazine's Sports Reporters
10:30 AM TSN The Reporters with Dave Hodge
11:00 AM NFL Countdown  
12:00 PM Golf: 2004 Ryder Cup - Day Three
6:00 PM NASCAR: Sylvania 300
8:30 PM NFL: Miami Dolphins @ Cincinnati Bengals  
11:30 PM SPORTSCENTRE

John:
Thanks for the link!  The article was still up and is the best one I've read yet for us Frustrated Canadian NASCAR fans!!!  Have a great trip in NH!  Tell us all about it when you get back!

Vivian:
Yes, we have Speed TV up here..  We do not have Fox Sports Net though.. We have some Fox Sports Net Canada channel which sucks rocks.  None of the U.S. NASCAR specials appear on that useless channel.  I too have Bell Expressvu for my satellite.. Star Choice sucks!  LOL..  Parents have it.. Horrible customer service also!


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Vivian on September 17, 2004, 08:01:59 PM
Looks like they scheduled 2.5 hours for the race.  Off the thread a bit, but do you get the NFL pre game show?


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Cheryl on September 17, 2004, 08:07:18 PM
Craig,

Oh man!  They make you wait until 6:00 for the race and then it is squashed into a 2 1/2 block between football?  

Lou and I met a couple from Canada at Lake Erie Speedway back and June and they had the same horror stories that you and John have about the coverage you guys get.  You're right, it does suck... :evil:

Cheryl


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: sally on September 17, 2004, 09:07:26 PM
Great way to tap into that HUGE Nascar fan base in Canada, no?

PS

I love the way you guys spell "centre"!
Sally


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Desmond on September 18, 2004, 04:52:38 PM
It was an interesting look at how NASCAR is covered in Canada, but I want to return to the topic.

I have just posted my feelings on the cancellation of qualifying in another thread.  Jamie McMurray must feel the worst about it.  One week after missing the Chase by just 25 points, he had the best of the 16 qualifying times posted Friday.  Of course, all times were eventually wiped out.

Certainly, drivers not in the chase have to find some other reason to carry on from now to the end of the season.  I wonder if they'll really feel happy with a $250,000 "consolation prize."


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: sally on September 18, 2004, 08:44:51 PM
Isn't it interesting that, in a (used to be) sport where the second place car was usually described as the "first loser", we are now being asked to get excited about the 10th loser?
Sally :?


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Cheryl on September 19, 2004, 04:46:53 PM
Quote from: "sally"
Isn't it interesting that, in a (used to be) sport where the second place car was usually described as the "first loser", we are now being asked to get excited about the 10th loser?
Sally :?


Ah, but they don't want any of the "kids" to feel like failures anymore, so I guess that is where all this touchy feely stuff came from.

Cheryl


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: marrtinigirl on September 19, 2004, 05:37:28 PM
Yeah, but unfortunately, in order for there to be a winner, there also must be losers.  Just the way it goes.  If they don't want anyone to lose, what's the point?  

Here's a side note, since we have play-offs now, will we start having exhibition races before the season starts?  Oh, wait, what was I thinking?  I guess we just watched 26 of them, didn't we?

Staci


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: sally on September 19, 2004, 11:03:30 PM
Let's all start the cheer now...

"WE'RE # 11!  WE'RE # 11..."

If I have one more Nascar tout tell me how "important" 11th place is now, I think I'm going to toss my cookies.

Sally


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: Cheryl on September 19, 2004, 11:50:48 PM
Quote from: "sally"
Let's all start the cheer now...

"WE'RE # 11!  WE'RE # 11..."

If I have one more Nascar tout tell me how "important" 11th place is now, I think I'm going to toss my cookies.


Haha!  That's a good one, Sally!  Now you all know I was definitely NOT defending that touchy feeling stuff we have these days, right?  I was being sarcastic.  Anyone who knows me well, knows I'm definitely not into that kind of thing.  I even bought a T-shirt a few years ago that says "second place is the first loser" and I still live by that motto.  

As to tossing things...well, at the risk of posting in the wrong thread, I just can't resist that one:  I was ready to toss something at the TV today when TNT was endlessly at commercial in the middle of the race.  Jeesh, if I wasn't trying to do a review, I would've just switched over and kept it on MRN.

Okay, Obligatory "race talk" remark:  It sure wasn't much of a race IMHO, but then NH never is.  I just cringed when Benny said "we might actually get two grooves later today..."  Jeesh!  I'm betting there are two real nice grooves down at North Wilkesboro (which used to be the race on this date).  

Oh yeah, Robby Gordon ought to be parked for the rest of the season IMHO.  Not just cause he took Jeremy and Tony out, just for general principles cause he's always been a menace and always will be a menace on the track.  Apologies in advance to anyone here who likes him, but he really comes across as an idiot at times.  I have to agree with the boys in the booth that if he wanted to get even with Biffle, fine, but don't do it when he racing around other cars.  

Cheryl


Title: Mixed feelings
Post by: sally on September 20, 2004, 12:09:00 AM
Cheryl, if the race was the typical, boring NH race, did Robby at least make things exciting?  It sounds as if this made my point about the "not a playoff" thing...when the NFL allows all 36(?) teams to participate in the Super Bowl, then Nascar can say they have a not a playoff just like football.  That's just one reason why this "let's pretend"  10 race stuff is full of...well, you know.

Sally :wink: