Speedcouch Forum

General Discussions => TV Talk => Topic started by: ronbarnes77 on August 20, 2004, 10:16:03 PM



Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: ronbarnes77 on August 20, 2004, 10:16:03 PM
i want to get evervbody's thoughts on what nascar should do if during the chase a race's quals are rained out.


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: sally on August 21, 2004, 12:49:16 AM
Start the cars in inverse order.


Sally


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Vivian on August 21, 2004, 01:57:05 AM
I never thought of that happening.  Wonder what they will do?   :? Probably the same as usual although Sally's idea sounds better to me.


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Lou on August 21, 2004, 01:58:49 AM
Musical Cars.

Have all the cars lined up on pit road, minus however many make it more than 43. Leave out the Shelmerdine and Shepard cars for sure.

Get all the drivers at the ready, including the "extra" ones who are now without cars. Have the P.A. system blast out Pink Floyd's "Money" and the drivers start circling around the cars until the music stops and then they jump in the cars nearest them.

That's the cars they drive, those who weren't fast enough go home.

Then line them up by car #.


 :twisted: Lou


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Vivian on August 21, 2004, 02:03:31 AM
Lou, you crack me up.   :lol:  :lol:  Sounds good to me.


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: sally on August 21, 2004, 04:47:28 AM
I think the inverse order is more entertaining...and that's what Nascar is all about these days, isn't it?  Your idea is good, Lou, but it would take way too long!  Let's give those guys at the back a chance to start up front in clean air, and see how well the hot shots do clawing ther way through the field, avoiding wrecks!  Once the crapshoot starts, none of those cars will get any airtime unless they're up front, so lte's even things up a bit!

Sally


Title: Re: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Cheryl on August 30, 2004, 01:03:26 PM
Quote from: "ronbarnes77"
i want to get evervbody's thoughts on what nascar should do if during the chase a race's quals are rained out.


I'd like to give Ron a serious answer to his question.  I may be a stick in the mud, but I think he has a real valid point.  

Before 2001, it was highly rare for qualifying for a Cup race to be rained out.  That is because they always had all day Saturday in which to get quals in.  Since Fox decided they wanted to "package" happy hour for broadcast during Saturday, this has severely impacted whether they can get qualifying in if there is rain on Friday.  The new two segments of happy hour are more important to TV than qualifying, which just seems wrong to me.  This is a real pet peeve of mine!   :evil:

Case in point was fall Charlotte two years ago.  Humpy always wants quals on Wed/Thurs night and they were interrupted by rain.  We were heading down there for the race and they had rescheduled them for Thursday morning that year.  There was a little rain on Thursday morning, so NASCAR cancelled quals entirely by 8 a.m..  I remember being ballistic over this at the time!  Here the race was not until Sunday afternoon, so they legitimately had all day (and night) Thursday, Friday AND Saturday to get Cup quals done.  Yet NASCAR cancelled them and set the field on points 3 days before the race!  I felt it gave an unfair advantage to  the points leader at the time.  As we know, many of the popular drivers are not good qualifiers (i.e., Kenseth, Earnhardt, J. Burton).  In 2002, about 3 of the last 6 races were set on points due to NASCAR cancelling quals because TV didn't want to hold them past Friday.  To me, this materially affected the outcome of the 2002 championship.  Tony Stewart is not a consistent qualifer and yet he got to start up front in all of those races (as did Mark Martin, who also doesn't win a lot of poles these days).  

So here we come to this "manufactured" championship playoff this year.  So, say Jeff Gordon continues to be the points leader after Richmond, will it be fair that he gets the pole awarded to him 3 out of the final 10 races if quals are rained out?  Will it be fair that the top 10 in the "chase" are starting in the top 10 for several races because quals are cancelled prematurely by NASCAR?  Talk about stacking the deck!  

I guess my opinion (in my own convoluted way) is that NASCAR should make every effort possible to get quals in for the last 10 races (as they should the entire season).  If this means running quals as late as Saturday evening, they ought to make that effort.  If this whole deal is SO important to NBC, they can record them and play back highlights of them during the pre-race show or something.  Of course, we all know the entire series has turned into nothing but a made-for-TV show since 2001, so this will never happen.  But that sure seems like the fair thing to me.  Give the drivers outside the top ten a legitimate chase to compete for a top-10 starting position, instead of artificially giving yet another advantage to the guys already sitting in the top 10.  If NASCAR really wants to give all teams an equal chance to some TV coverage and the win, this is what I think they ought to do.

Okay, my rant is over now.   Sorry... :)

Cheryl


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: marrtinigirl on August 30, 2004, 04:38:37 PM
I agree with you, Cheryl.  Qualifying is important and should ALWAYS be done, unless it rains up until race day.

I think, though, that if, for some reason (like what I stated above) qualifying doesn't get done, you are right, doing it according to points is definitely stacking the deck.  Those guys DON'T qual well and shouldn't be given the advantage.

I think they should start the race according to finishing order from the week before.  For one reason, I think it gives a little more to the winner of the race, not just the points, and two, if the top guys had bad runs and say Ken Schrader or like Jeff Burton last week, had a good run, then they are rewarded for that by being able to start closer to the top.  

I don't know, perhaps it is a bad idea, but I think it is better than starting on points.

Staci


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Vivian on August 30, 2004, 04:50:53 PM
With luck no quals will be rained out.  But since when have we had luck lately?  They, IMO, always stack the deck.   :wink:


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: ronbarnes77 on September 01, 2004, 03:38:09 PM
the reason why i wanted everybody's opinion is because this issue could have a big impact upon the race for the title.


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Lou on September 01, 2004, 03:45:01 PM
Quote from: "ronbarnes77"
the reason why i wanted everybody's opinion is because this issue could have a big impact upon the race for the title.
We are always complaining about too many rule changes, so I say that there should be no difference during the last 10 races as far as the qualifying rules go. Keep it that same as it is right now. If it rains, start on points.


Lou


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: ronbarnes77 on September 01, 2004, 10:07:17 PM
just keep in mind lou  that  this could end up deciding the title.


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: sally on September 02, 2004, 12:07:06 AM
Who cares who wins the mini title?  I think it would be a hoot if the 12th place driver goes on a tear, wins 3 or 4 of the last 10 races, gets more points than anyone in the top 10....and ends up finishing in 12th place.  Then Nascar can try to justify how their new system produces a "real" champ!

OK.  So I'm a little bitter, alright! :?
Sally


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Vivian on September 02, 2004, 04:00:48 PM
Although I am trying very hard to be objective about this whole thing, my mind keeps telling me that the championship is based on a season long consistantancy.  I guess I will crown 3 champions.  One after Richmond - who ever is ahead in points, one along with Nascar's rules and one who would have won if the points had not been changed after Richmond.  May be hard for me to figure that one but someone will and when they say who it would have been under the old system, then he will be my overall champion.  The thing that bothers me most about this whole thing are the drivers who could have made it into the top ten the old way and now they won't be able to advance any further than 11th.  Sad, sad  :(
BTW, by mini title you did mean the last ten races, right?


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Desmond on September 02, 2004, 04:08:43 PM
Vivian is right.  Bill Elliott and Tony Stewart advanced to the top ten in last year's standings within the final ten races, while Kurt Busch and Michael Waltrip dropped out.

Now, a driver under these circumstances must stay home and eat pizza while the "locked-in" top ten get to go to the banquet :(

This thing doesn't look good.


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Cheryl on September 02, 2004, 04:23:20 PM
I agree you Vivian, except I don't think I will ever consider the person who is on top after the last 10 races REALLY a champion...

As for the guys from 11th on, I had absolutely no idea they didn't even stand a chance of moving into the top 10 in those last races until a couple weeks ago.  I guess I didn't "understand" the new rules as Brian France keeps telling us we need to do.  Guess what, now that I really understand the rules, I dislike them even more.

Cheryl


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Vivian on September 02, 2004, 11:16:47 PM
Oh, Cheryl, I wish I had said something sooner and I thought we did discuss it.  I will review old posts.  I do know that was Bobby Allison's main objection in the beginning and also Richard Petty didn't like it, I think.

That has been my biggest beef all along.  In fact, I think I mentioned it in one of my opinion pieces.  I will check and see.

Yep, if you ain't top 10 after Richmond the best will be 11th in order to get on stage.  Do you suppose a lot of people don't realize that yet?


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Cheryl on September 03, 2004, 01:13:42 PM
Quote from: "Vivian"
Oh, Cheryl, I wish I had said something sooner and I thought we did discuss it.  I will review old posts.  I do know that was Bobby Allison's main objection in the beginning and also Richard Petty didn't like it, I think.

That has been my biggest beef all along.  In fact, I think I mentioned it in one of my opinion pieces.  I will check and see.

Yep, if you ain't top 10 after Richmond the best will be 11th in order to get on stage.  Do you suppose a lot of people don't realize that yet?


You probably did mention it.  I have just been so against the whole Chase idea; it probably just didn't sink into my hard head.   :lol:

I suspect the average fan (who doesn't read the internet) probably doesn't really understand the rules.  But I'm sure TNT and NBC will make sure and beat them into their heads over the next 12 weeks.

Cheryl


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: sally on September 03, 2004, 03:05:17 PM
Wouldn't it be cool if the 11th or 12th place driver after Richmond goes on a tear, outpoints everyone in the top 10, and still finishes 11th?  How do you justify having a "champ" with THAT scenario?
Sally


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: ronbarnes77 on September 03, 2004, 03:25:03 PM
:D i agree with sally this quirk in the rule will be a rude shock in the next few weeks.


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Cheryl on September 03, 2004, 03:34:17 PM
Quote from: "sally"
Wouldn't it be cool if the 11th or 12th place driver after Richmond goes on a tear, outpoints everyone in the top 10, and still finishes 11th?  How do you justify having a "champ" with THAT scenario?
Sally


I was just reading Track Smack, which is the only thing I ever look at on NOL.  This week Matt Kenseth is their guest driver and below are some excerpts from what he had to say about the whole deal.  He makes some excellent points and some of the same ones that you do, Sally.  

"Matt Kenseth: I think the hardest thing about is if someone is 600 or 700 points behind and has gotten the lucky dog thing a bunch of times to get free laps back and hasn't had a good year, to put them almost even with Jeff Gordon, who's won however many races he's won and done so great all year and has one DNF at the end and loses the championship, I don't know if that's fair.

There's another thing that might be kind of weird that somebody brought up to me, and I don't if it'd make any sense or not, but if they're only having the top-10 drivers eligible anyway, start 'em all out at zero and give 10 points for the winner and one point for whoever finishes last out of those 10 cars. That way, if you have a DNF and finish 43rd you're not totally out of it.

Just rank the top-10 against each other. Don't rank them by how they finish against everybody else, who isn't running in the Chase. The way this point system is set up, it's supposed to reward winning races and not necessarily so heavy on consistency. In my book, for these last 10 it's almost more weighted on consistency because the guy who has one problem and gets his 38 points or whatever it is for last, compared to the guy who finishes fifth or sixth every week, is going to have a real problem beating that guy, so I think it's still really weighted on consistency over the last 10.

If he drops out of even one or two of them he's going to lose to that guy.

There are some funny things about it that could work out, too. The guy that's 10th in points after all them races could go to the Bahamas for two months and still walk up on stage at the banquet and be 10th in points, and the guy who was 11th could win all 10 races in the Chase and not make the top-10.

There are definitely some weird things about it."

The whole article is here, but basically most of the NOL guys think the Chase is great so they have more to "talk about."  Jeez...

http://www.nascar.com/2004/news/features/track_smack/08/31/smack_fontana/index.html

Cheryl


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: sally on September 03, 2004, 03:47:55 PM
Cheryl, I've felt all along that most non racing media find it easy to put down points in a column and pretend that they are covering racing.  That's why they like it.  Notice that most of the media coverage has nothing to do with the actual race, just the "middle" drivers?  It will be interesting to see if the points coverage continues in all these media once football gets going.
Sally


Title: quals in the chase for the championship
Post by: Vivian on September 03, 2004, 05:29:16 PM
The cruelest of all would be if someone in 14th or 15th really went on a tear and scored enough points to get him down to 9th or 10th and yet he was stuck with 12th because 11th had a better end to season; so 11th would get to still go, but the one who could have make it to 10th didn't even make 11th because even though 11th had great runs, he could not advance to 8th or 9th and vacate 11th.   Then someone in top 10 had 2 or 3 dnfs and normally would have fallen to 12th or so but can now stay in top 10 and be on stage.  Make sense?  Stupid?  Yes, yes, yes.  All these what ifs and no solutions due to points chase.   :mrgreen:  Dang, dang, dang ..... :evil: