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General Discussions => Race Talk => Topic started by: 17RoushFan on June 13, 2004, 10:36:24 PM

Title: Rip-off
Post by: 17RoushFan on June 13, 2004, 10:36:24 PM
Dadgum it! Another finish under yellow. Will this finally prompt NASCAR to finally go green-white-checkers?  :evil:

Title: Rip-off
Post by: sally on June 13, 2004, 10:47:15 PM
Nope.  I'm sure they won't ever go to that format.  It's what everyone wants them to do, I I bet that Brian France wants to do it HIS way!  The only reason they changed some things this week was because they make a public spectacle...several weeks in a row...or their ridiculous rules.  I'm beginning to wonder why we are having so many cautions thrown, period!  Is this a result of the new championship rules?  Is this Brian France's idea of "excitement"?  Two weeks in a row with more caution laps than green flag racing, or so it seems.  This is getting ludicrous.  Anyone got any ideas about why this seems to be happening every week?
Sally :cry:

Title: Rip-off
Post by: 17RoushFan on June 13, 2004, 10:51:30 PM
Right. Just like the BCS, the more things change, the more things stay the same. In other words, it's not getting better. It's certainly not improving.  :?

Title: Rip-off
Post by: sally on June 13, 2004, 10:54:41 PM
Right on.  As I said before, this work in progress doesn't seem to be showing much progress...at least, not forward.
Sally :x

Title: Rip-off
Post by: Lou on June 14, 2004, 12:42:45 PM
Quote from: "sally"
I'm beginning to wonder why we are having so many cautions thrown, period!

The ones that weren't actually because of wrecks are a result of the Mears/oil/Kahne/wreck at Dover. The tower saw smoke (i.e. like a tire rub of a single car spin and go) and threw the caution rather than risk being called on the carpet by the drivers for not throwing one.

An obvious over-reaction to last weeks problems, but that's my take on WHY they threw the yellow at times which appeared unnecessary.


Title: Rip-off
Post by: Cheryl on June 14, 2004, 12:45:11 PM
I moved this topic from the "TV Talk" section since it really involves the race itself and not anything TV did.  

But I certainly do agree with you guys!  NASCAR is becoming a joke!  And it just gets worse week after week.  They made an attempt to straighten out their problems from last week and just end up creating more by their incompetence in opening up pit road as they said they would.  

Johnson's team is just lucky that they had such a fast car and luck on their side that they could get back to the front after that fiasco with opening pit road in the middle of the race.

Yesterday, it also seemed like NASCAR continued their inconsistent practices of throwing cautions when they weren't needed (such as when Jones' car simply had a tire rub).  They overreact to some situations like that and waste even more of the laps; thereby cheating the ticketing-buying fans and those of us at home out of green-flag racing.

The end of the race was ridiculous as well!  First Burton blows an engine and then Harvick decides to act like a spoiled brat and take Kenseth out.  Then Kenseth retaliates.  But I was definitely cheering Kenseth's move and cracking up over Greg Biffle acting as bodyguard so Harvick couldn't get to Matt.   :)

But NASCAR blew it in not red-flagging the race, so we could see a green-flag finish.  I felt so letdown with the end of what had been some good racing up until then.  Mayfield may not have had anything for Johnson, but we'll never know; but many of the other top ten drivers were charging hard there at the end and I think we'd have seen quite a few position changes in the top five had the race had a green flag finish.  That's what really disgusted me.  

Then the fans who started throwing stuff on the frontstretch.  Those idiots at Talladega have set a bad precedent and now every idiot at any track is going to follow suit.  Thankfully the guy who threw the cooler on the track was apprehended (according to TV).  Guess the Pennsylvania police are a little more competent than those in Talladega.   :wink:

I agree that green-white-checker should be the standard at every NASCAR race!  Every other stock car series out there does it and manages just fine (ASA, ARCA, USAR...) but NASCAR is probably afraid the race might run too long for the TV timeslot.


Title: Rip-off
Post by: sally on June 14, 2004, 01:00:27 PM
It couldn't be any worse than the eternal yellow flag laps that they have now!  The race would be quicker if they ran at race speed instead of 55!

Title: Rip-off
Post by: Lou on June 14, 2004, 01:16:08 PM
I'm certainly NOT on NA$CAR's side with the yellow flag finish, BUT.... the length of that caution may have been shorter and may have allowed for a green/white/checker had it not been for the 2 children having temper tantrums on the track. The last part where Harvick threw dirt and rocks and grass all over the groove in turn 3 was the key. NASCAR had NO choice but to prolong the caution to clean that area and by that time it was too late.

So keep the 29 and 17 cars in your field of vision when you start to vilify the series for finishing under yellow.

Would they have still finished under yellow even if 29/17 had behaved themselves? Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know....


Title: Rip-off
Post by: Vivian on June 14, 2004, 06:35:49 PM
IMO, the finish yesterday is just a preview of things to come, especially in the last 10 races.  Does anyone else feel like I do?   I think starting with only a 5 point difference between each of the top ten drivers that Nascar can and probably will decide the points champion.  A few well thrown cautions and then ending races under yellow due to the length of the cautions and wa la, a champion is crowned.  Not because of the fact that they were the most consistant over the 36 race year, but because they were the benefactor of Nascar's rule system and insconsistant enforcing of the same rules.  In other words, Nascar will predetermine the champion and make the rules accordingly.  Think about it.  There will be so much pressure of the top 10 drivers that only 1 o 2 will be able to keep their cool and the rest will be pushing so hard that the Kenseth & Harvick incident will look very mild indeed compared to what we will see when the end of the year comes near.
Other than that, I must ask Cheryl's patience and tolerance with me at this point.  I have to point out at this time that the IRL was the best race of the 3 day weekend.  Cheryl, I know this is a Nascar forum, but I felt I had to put this remark in here.  Thanks for understanding.   :shock:

Title: Rip-off
Post by: Cheryl on June 14, 2004, 06:44:20 PM
Haha, Vivian!  I'll let the obigatory IRL comment slide this time.  Just don't make a habit of it.   :wink:

On your thoughts about NASCAR now being able to "script" the champion, you seem to be on the right track.  The way DW was talking yesterday, I think he forgot and let the cat out of the bag when he said about the 8 "some years, it's just your year to win the championship."  I think he got a preview of NASCAR's script for the 2004 season and just couldn't keep the "secret" to himself.   :wink:


Title: Rip-off
Post by: Vivian on June 14, 2004, 09:38:14 PM
Yes, I wondered about that remark and Don and I discussed it.  I kind of think the way they ended under caution that they let Jimmy win as they had screwed up when they opened the pits at the wrong time.  They were actually on lap 195 when the caution flew, not 196 and they wasted one lap discussing the situation (IMO) until it was too late to throw red.  You could actually see the red being held low by the flagman in a couple of shots just waiting for the word.  I was totally disgusted yesterday and I kind of starting switching back and forth between NHRA on ESPN ll once I knew the red was not coming.   :evil:

Okay, Everyone!  Let's hear your opinions, please.

Title: Rip-off
Post by: BAM24/25 on June 14, 2004, 10:11:21 PM
Oh yeah - I was furious at DW insinuating that this was Junior's championship year! :twisted:   I also think the last ten races could get nasty.  And what about teammates?  Will we see teammates who are out of the C4C block and do other things for those teammates that are still in it?  It also magnifies the impact any decision NASCAR makes during those ten races.  Don't like it.  Never liked it.  Going to be a mess. :x

Title: Rip-off
Post by: sally on June 14, 2004, 10:22:39 PM
I think that many of the problems that Nascar is having have to do with Brian France not caring about the racing, just about putting more $$$in his own pocket.  He makes rules without any way to implement them...unless they are HIS idea (thus avoiding the last green flag lap scenario), and not caring how stupid everyone else looks.  Poor Mike Helton, having to make these ridiculous announcements.  I think the ultimate capper will be the final 10 races, when Nascar's snafu's will make a total mockery of the championship.

Hey Viv, you really like the IRL races when only half the 20 starters are around for the finish?  By the way, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought part of the motivation for not throwing the red flag was to make up to JJ for the screw up on pit road.  

Hey!  Doesn't the tower tell the flagman when to open pit road?  Another fall guy for Baby Brian?


Title: Rip-off
Post by: Vivian on June 15, 2004, 12:55:39 AM
Sally, yep, I thought it was good racing because it WAS racing.  There was close competition and even though it was a small field at the end, it was good competition.  Better stop here before Cheryl bans me.   :wink:

Title: Rip-off
Post by: Cheryl on June 15, 2004, 12:41:47 PM
Quote from: "BAM24/25"
Will we see teammates who are out of the C4C block and do other things for those teammates that are still in it?  It also magnifies the impact any decision NASCAR makes during those ten races.  Don't like it.  Never liked it.  Going to be a mess. :x

I'm with you 100% Beth.  There are so many multi-car teams out there now, and for the most part each will only have about 1 car in contention at the end.  What do the other 1-3 cars on their team have to lose?  I particularly worry about what kind of carnage we will see at Talladega.  It really frightens me to think the drivers will go in there under so much pressure and some with absolutely nothing to lose.


Title: Rip-off
Post by: Desmond on June 15, 2004, 04:43:22 PM
Vivian, absolutely right about the potential of carnage, especially at Talladega.  The 19-car accidents at Dover on June 6 and at Daytona in February 2001 could end up being nothing in comparison.

What is certain is that the Chase races will actually be two in one: 10 drivers trying to be consistent, maybe conservative; and 33 others with nothing to lose, going for the win.  We can't wait to find out how these strategies will play out.

If nothing else, the Chase is phony because the scores are reset (first place, 5050; second, 5045; third, 5040 etc.)  Any lead, no matter how big, is wiped out.  Drivers who are barely good enough to be in the top 10 will be anointed to championship status and can sneak into the title.  The champion can go winless the whole season, which would defeat the whole purpose of CFTC.

The Chase could still succeed, but if it does, it will be in spite of itself--and the people who made it possible.

Title: Rip-off
Post by: ronbarnes7777 on June 15, 2004, 06:22:23 PM
i'm beginning to dislike this chase because i believe encourages drivers to drive recklessly

Title: Rip-off
Post by: sally on June 15, 2004, 07:49:23 PM
I think it is subject to too many problems...competing team cars interfering, Nascar blowing more calls...all sorts of problems.  How will any of us feel if the 10th ranked driver (more than 400 points out of the lead) ends up winning the championship?  I know I certainly won't regard someone who wins under the new rules as achieving the same feat that drivers have before this.  Even if it's Junior!

Title: Rip-off
Post by: BAM24/25 on June 15, 2004, 09:07:48 PM
That is definitely a whole other issue Sally.  People will saying over and over that this is not a "real" championship, etc.  While I agree with that I can see me getting really tired of hearing it.  Especially if it is my driver that wins the championship. :?


Title: Rip-off
Post by: Vivian on June 15, 2004, 09:49:13 PM
Do you all remember what happened to Brendan Gaughan in the truck race last year by an extra truck who was put into the field by Jim Smith mainly to help one of the other drivers (Musgrave) win the championship and this driver took Gaughan out when he would have won the championship otherwise?  Well, hello to the last 10 races!  Yes, there will be carnage and there will be blocking by other drivers and there will be extra cars trying to get into the race.  I can especially see Roush putting some of his new drivers in Cup cars.  Anything for that edge that will help one of his top ten  drivers because if they make the show, that means maybe that the teammate of one of the other drivers who is in the top ten might not make the show.   :cry:   I may be crazy but that is my opinion.  I guess if people watch for the crash portions only, then this will draw them.  Anyone agree?

Right now all the drivers are just trying to make the top 10.  Mark Martin admitted in an interview that any thoughts of the championship is now over for him based on this last weekend's engine blowing.  That attitude will probably be the one most drivers out of that 10 will take and they will race to win and take more chances that they ever would before, imo.